Simon

Can I just say (again) that I really like the concept behind the payment processor. Whether it works or not in this particular instance I do not care, fact is the concept is good.

As for XLOtwo, obviously few here have a need for it, it's too risky from our point of view.

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sharonsopinion

Andy,

You completely ignored my last post and questions. You also missed the point once again. Which leads me to assume that you fully know that you're running a scam, but chose to try diversion tactics to keep from answering direct questions.

I say that you missed the point, because we were trying to explain to you, using a different example, of why XLOtow is a scam. Instead of addressing the question, you chose to pick out a minor point and brush it off. The point was NOT that we set up an example with only one person. That was only for simplicity sake.

If you're too dense to realize it, I'll spell out this much for you. This forum has a wonderful collection of very informed members. It is not just another run-of-the-mill, pimp forum. Therefore, you're not going to convince anyone here that what you're doing is not a scam, unless you directly answer the question of "What do you do with the XLOtwo funds to generate the 50% ROI in 75 days?"

It is quite clear that the answer to the question is that you generate the 50% by new deposits (new or old members) and add the ATM fees to the pooled funds. The ATM fee is not enough to cover the 50% ROI. Also, the funds deposited into XLOtwo are not invested in the ATM. Just because you mix the deposits into one pool for payments does not make this any less of a scam.

I'll try an example one more time...

Let's say that XLOtwo does take off. What happens in all ponzi schemes, which has some degree of success, is that the initial deposits cover more than what is actually withdrawn. Also ~80% of the people compound indefinitely and another 10% compound a portion. There still comes a time when the amount of deposits going in slows way down for one reason or another and they no longer cover the withdraws. Inevitably, the program fails. Ponzis are set up to fail by sheer definition and are therefore scams, regardless of how long they last. Adding fees from another entity into the pool only extends the life of the scam, but it is still a scam!

Did you or did you not read my Pond Scum article? I provided the link to it in each of my comments. It will explain my position as well as the rest of the posters that are trying to get through to you!

The bottom line is that the members of this forum are too smart to buy into your BS. IF any of them do decide to buy your BS, it will be just to get in and get out, knowing full well that they are gambling. The RISK is not in the program, it is in YOU, because they are gambling on when you decide it is time to pull the plug.

I know I just wasted 20 minutes of my time writing this post and it will not make a difference, since you are determined to be bull-headed. I am tired of your BS posts trying to divert attention and not addressing the issue of your scam. So, why do I keep replying? It is for people that are not members of NoBS Network forum, who google for information about you and your scams.

JMO,
Sharon

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lobstroid

Frankly, I don't know how the program earns its money, and I don't care and won't care until the admin/owner proves him/themselves to be dishonest. I use "autosurfs" for cheap advertising of other (non-'surf) sites, along with PTRs, PTPs, traffic exchanges, safelists. Since I am not using the program in order to make money -from- it I don't concern myself with any "subscription fees" as the level of membership they confer is not necessary to my purpose.

I never "upgrade" in an autosurf any more than the minimum required to be able to place my ads/sites in the rotator - I was infected with the "autosurf virus" for almost three years before the disease finally ran its course - leaving me financially crippled for quite awhile. I now use autosurfs exclusively for advertising purposes only - the garnering of traffic and sales from my non-'surf business sites - and have had good success doing so at minimal cost.

I do not and will not place advertising on any site that has an admin known to be a scam artist, and the owner/admin of this particular program has yet to be shown as such.

Thousands of people are infected with the gambling bug known as "autosurfing" and nothing is going to stop them from doing it but themselves - it is an addiction to most of them, and like all addictions a choice to stop must be made before they can even begin to "get over it". While there are still all those people 'surfing every day I will continue to place my ads in front of them cheaply.

The link in my sig doesn't even belong to me, I placed it there as a favor to a friend. If you so strongly object, I will remove it - with this caveat - NEVER call me a "pimp" again please. "Pimping" is a vile and disgustingly vulgar word to use in reference to the placement of a reflink, and very insulting as well.
Call me an old-fashioned prude if you wish, but I find the common acceptance of using profane and vulgar words and phrases in public to be disgusting and insulting - perhaps it's just a "generation gap" thing - but to me it shows a total lack of both self respect and respect for others.

As to XLO2, I remain firm in my conviction that it is no more than a scammer's latest attempt to line his pockets with as much as he can of other people's money before he once more disappears into the dark holes of cyberspace. Scammers will exhort you continually to "forget the past" and try to divert attention from any questions of substance about their scam with every "answer" they give you. That is all I have seen coming from "Andy" here. If we are not to judge a "returning" admin on past performance, what criteria are we to use? His/her affirmation that their program is not a scam? Show us some proof then and stop dodging the issue, "Andy"!

Lobstroid Crustacean MCMLII

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HeyJude

I posted some of the following in the blog section too:

I’ve used CSATM several times. It works fine.

In my opinion, admins should at least look into it, without any “Andy baggage" …lol….coloring their judgment. The decision about CSATM should be made on its own merits as an online cash system.

CSATM is a no-brainer from a business perspective. It offers a flexible, cost effective option for both admins and end users.

I lost a bit of money in TFT but that has not stopped me from joining Surf Now. I was in XLO for 12 months, was able to cash out every day if I wanted and I look forward to repeating that experience in Surf Now.

Do I think Andy is a scammer? No. A gambler? Maybe. He admits he made bad decisions with TFT. The only question is: has he learned from it? I hope so.

A scammer by definition is someone who has larceny at heart from the start, with a clear intention to defraud members. Anyone who has been dealing with Andy at XLO or over a period of time through his forum will know that not to be the case. Andy had plenty of chances to walk away with the loot and he never did.

I don’t blame Andy for selling XLO to Bob Krimm. If I had been the owner of TFT at the time and had a viable site like XLO, and had been given an offer to buy it from someone who at the time was still considered the king of paid autosurfs, I would have sold it too.

The suggestion that selling the database to B.K. somehow breached privacy laws is nonsense. If the business is sold with the membership base, the records must go with it.

Andy, I hope you continue to answer any and all questions to the best of your ability here, even if you have to repeat yourself a thousand times. Hint, just link back and or copy/paste the relevant earlier answer.

I'm all for a healthy debate, but the amount of emotion I detect in the posts of some the naysayers here tells me their views are less than objective. Okay, we're all human. I understand.

And I do applaud the careful consideration and debate allowed to be vented here. Healthy debate is important.

I have read nothing in this thread, however, that would change my mind about CSATM being a good idea, and my past experience at XLO is enough for me to join SurfNow without a moment's hesitation.

Really guys, if Andy wanted to rake in the money, he could have simply offered e-gold as a payment option, and he would have a thousand members more in SurfNow than he has so far, and he could have run off with all of it by now.

You can disagree with me, but please don't call me a cheerleader. The uniform doesn't fit, and I will be deeply offended!


HeyJude

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Andy

Sharon I ignored your post. You are quite right. If you think that throwing insults and falsehoods around makes you a competant administrator then that is your choice. However, I post an answer and you say "that is BS" then I do not see exactly what is gained by me coming back so you can keep up your insults. You have not asked me anything that has not been answered.

I am working on getting the ATM accepted mainstream. Simple as that.

If that works (and it should) then the amount of fees generated wil more than pay the return for XLO2.

Obviously if the ATM is not taken up then I may have a problem. I do not forsee this happening. I am working to ensure that this does not.

You keep harping back to the fact tha it is only XLO2 members right now who are using the system You are right. And your point is what? Someone had to be first. The members of XLO2 are aware of what they are doing.

The system that I provide is an evolution in e-currencies. It has enourmous benefits and safeties built into it. And it provides many of the things that administrators and participants want.

You keep saying that the fees generated by the ATM are of no consequence.

They are.

A ponzii has no external income stream. As soon as the fees are used to pay the returns there is an income stream.

The spends coming in provide working capital if you like.

And the above answers all of your points.

I agree that you do not like my past actions. I also contend that like some others you do not see that it is possible that I have learned anything. I also contend that your emotions are clouding your judgement.

If you look at the ATM in isolation then I think you will see that it has enourmous potential. However, you have chosen not to do that. You insist it is some sort of scam/terrible thing. The ATM is a very viable and robust system that does not allow the owner of the ecurrency to remove members funds. It does not allow for a central location which can be frozen at whim.

It does allow for users to transact in privacy without the fear that anyone can download their entire history at any point in time.

The members of XLO2 are taking a chance on the system. They are quite entitled to do so without being insulted or belittled.

Your asumption is that I have set out to scam. As you have that perception, anything I say will be treated (by you) in that context. You are assuming I am lieing etc. So, rather than giving your emotions more fuel, I chose to ignore you,

I have answered you now (directly) but the answers were already here.

longfellaz

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then.......

I think you know the rest.

Simon

I've started a thread about the processor, with a couple of questions, because the concept intrigues me. I don't care about the hyip / autosurf, so let's separate the 2 out.

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sharonsopinion

Andy,

You keep repeating the same non-answers. So, I'm done debating with you, until you actually answer the questions. I have not stated any falsehoods. I call your answers BS, because they skirt the primary issue, rather than answer it. Also, my emotions have nothing to do with finances. They are all centered on your stubborn refusal to answer. I do get emotional when I see someone ripping people off.

JMO,
Sharon

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Slickcat

Andy,
I'm not sure why you cant understand a simple fact. All your programs have failed and people consider you a "SCAM". Thats the starting point for all of us therefore it is logical to deduce that anything that you associate yourself with no matter how sound the business model sounds will be considered a scam, atm in this case. Its not that our judgement is clouded, its our judgement that tells us that if a person has scammed you once he/she will scam you again. Its "common sense actually". The only people who will consider investing..well actually gambling with you will be hit and runners and newbies to this scene who let greed overcome their common sense. Sorry buddy this is one argument you cannot win.

Andy

I will have say - once more XLO did not fail. Not by my hand.

So your statement "all your progams have failed is in fact wrong.

I also note

OK now lets be clear here I know that in some cases that is the starting point. And that is why I said the judgement was clouded. And you have yourself confirmed it is.

Also I am not getting all pouty about that I am pointing out the fact. If I am to promote the ATM I have to do so recognising the fact that some of you are somewhat clouded - and this is by dint of history. OK now we know that.. (which we did at the start) have a look at the ATM model.. see what you think about it. The processor is capable of generating fees that will pay the returns for XLO2. That is the plan.

If you think I am setting out to scam people, then you are wrong. Me telling you you are wrong is not going to impress you, and will probably get you defensive and angry and things go downhill. No one gets anywhere.

So I focus on the positives. You/Some focus on the negatives. The twain shall not meet.. but that does not mean that your perception of me as a scammer is correct. It might be for you. It might not be for others. And I also contend that you are tacitly insulting those who have a different perception than your own.

As this is a pace of noBS etc.. then is it not better to allow ALL opinions without insults??