XLOTwo on Page 4 at Nobullshit Network Forum

slappy · 07-06-2007, 12:31 AM

"Your SOLE complaint is that I admitted to mistakes in the past..."

This is not my complaint at all. You've not admitted to anything, other than saying, "there were losses." You've still to this day never provided any proof of those losses. You claimed those losses occured during the month where you took in the most amount of deposits. You expect us to believe that all of your so called earnings vehicles collapsed at the same exact time, yet again providing no such proof of any losses or any earnings vehicles. You led everyone to believe that everything was hunky dory with both programs right before you took all the money in both programs. History and common sense leads most people here and on other forums to believe that you walked away with a ton of member's money.

You admit to running at least a partial ponzi, which by the way is one of the very few things you came clean about, which is illegal, contrary to what you think. You claimed you had enough of surfs and would not run another, yet now here you are again. Then you post that if someone feels a ponzi is a scam, that is a "pack of crap." The fact that you don't feel running an illegal ponzi equals a scam speaks volumes about your mindset and how little respect you have for the law. You wonder why I continue to bring all this up?
It's called history, and history has shown that it repeats itself time and time again. So, as I've let you know before, if there are new people to the world of hyip's, I'm letting them know about your past. From there, they can make their own informed decision on whether to join your ponzi or not.

One last thing. If you feel that you've done nothing wrong/illegal with TFT and/or XLO, then how about you turn over your personal information(full name, address, phone number....) and after an investigation is done by law enforcement officials, we'll see if any charges are pressed for running a ponzi?

**sharonsopinion** · 07-06-2007, 12:52 AM

Andy,

My complaint is that XLOtwo is a ponzi scheme. Regardless of whether you are using funds obtained from CSatm fees or new deposits, you are paying maturing ad packs from other people's money. Paying old members from new members funds is the definition of a ponzi scheme, regardless of how many sites you use to get those funds.

I did read the CSatm interview, as I read everything on the blog. I just read it again. What it is, is another middle layer where you can collect fees. A person wanting to gamble in XLOtwo has to move funds from their bank (or e-currency account) into STP or one of the exchangers. Next the exchanger moves it to CSatm. The gambler picks it up from the exchanger's CSatm location and moves the CSatm to a place for XLOtwo to pick it up. The reverse is done for withdraws. So, IMHO, all CSatm is, is another layer and more fees, which are not necessary. It is there not for the benefit of the members, but more for your benefit. I do understand the concept and it is unnecessary for a site, merchant, etc. to use the middle layer when they can just set up STP directly on their payment page.

What other sites use CSatm as their payment option? You said none, but some have inquired. The fact that none have signed on speaks volumes. IF any do, please let us know what they are so that we can stay away from them, too.

BTW, you complained that I didn't read your interview, but I did. Now I suspect that you didn't read my article, "Ponzi Scheme - Pond Scum." When you do, be sure to visit and read the links in it, too. It explains my conclusion that ALL ponzi schemes are scams, regardless of how long or much they pay out. Your ponzi scheme is not an exception. Whether or not your exchange fees cover the current withdraws is a mute point. Eventually the withdraws will out pace the deposits and fees. When they do, it will collapse. In order to have a REAL opportunity, you must use the deposits to earn revenue, then payout the proceeds to the depositors. You are not using the deposits to earn revenue. You are using other deposits and fees, which all came from your pool of members.

In addition, I could care less whether you accept "my" definition that all ponzi schemes are scams or not. The fact that all reputable entities, including all governments, define all ponzi schemes as scams is good enough. So, you may disrespect my opinion, if you chose. However, that doesn't change the fact that you are running a scam. It is well known that those running scams are big BSers and you are no exception. So, with that said, XLOtwo remains in the scam section.

JMO,
Sharon

slappy · 07-06-2007, 12:58 AM

Sharon, I normally read what is on the blog everyday and have done so for almost the last 2 years, however somehow your article got past me. I just clicked the link and read the entire thing, including the numerous comments. What a great article. I wish anyone new to hyip's could read that before they spend any of their money. Again, congratulations on such a great read!

Andy · 07-06-2007, 01:24 AM

*sigh*

The spends generate revenue...

Whether or not you think this is a moot point does not matter. It is an exceedingly relevant point.

The point about being set up for my benefit is ridiculous. Yes the ATM makes money So does EVERY payment processor. In the case of XLO2 those amounts go to pay the members.

You also disregard the fact that the ATM provides privacy to the members AND the complete inability of the admin to run with the money (like osgold and evocash etc etc)

A ponzii pays its members only from other members spends. If there is any additional source of income then it cannot be termed a ponzi. However there is no point arguing.. you have your opinions.

**opie999** · 07-06-2007, 01:57 AM

Hi, Andy.

Would it be fair to characterize your programs as "partial ponzis"?

lobstroid · 07-06-2007, 07:41 AM

BAH!!

This whole thing stinks worse that the biggest load of oyster manure on the beach! "Andy" claims to have made some "mistakes", then kept the money left over at the closing of XLO and TFT......and then claims there was no wrongdoing in selling people's private information (the XLO database) to the scammer Krimm. I call it ethically and morally WRONG to have done those things. I would no more trust "Andy" with any of my money than I would trust Dick Cheney to tell the truth - which ain't gonna happen.

This folderol about "CSATM" is just an attempt to promote another scam - XLO2!
It will pay right up until the point "Andy" has made enough off of it added to whatever monies the suckers (pardon me, "members") have upgraded with at that time - to "retire" for another few months - then close just like XLO did. All I see here is fiduciary irresponsibility (if not downright thievery) along with violation of privacy in the past and the use of a new gimmick to suck people into forgetting what happened.

In the words of Valentine Michael Smith - "I grok a wrongness here."

I say leave the scam right where it belongs - in the scam section.

Lobstroid Crustacean MCMLII

**opie999** · 07-06-2007, 01:56 PM

LOL! Ah, a Heinlein fan. Grok on bro, and welcome aboard the good ship Nobs!

CashFlow · 07-06-2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lobstroid

BAH!!

This whole thing stinks worse that the biggest load of oyster manure on the beach! "Andy" claims to have made some "mistakes", then kept the money left over at the closing of XLO and TFT......and then claims there was no wrongdoing in selling people's private information (the XLO database) to the scammer Krimm. I call it ethically and morally WRONG to have done those things. I would no more trust "Andy" with any of my money than I would trust Dick Cheney to tell the truth - which ain't gonna happen.

This folderol about "CSATM" is just an attempt to promote another scam - XLO2!
It will pay right up until the point "Andy" has made enough off of it added to whatever monies the suckers (pardon me, "members") have upgraded with at that time - to "retire" for another few months - then close just like XLO did. All I see here is fiduciary irresponsibility (if not downright thievery) along with violation of privacy in the past and the use of a new gimmick to suck people into forgetting what happened.

In the words of Valentine Michael Smith - "I grok a wrongness here."

I say leave the scam right where it belongs - in the scam section.

Lobstroid Crustacean MCMLII

Who likes to walking on Eggshells with Jekyll & Hyde?
The male gender is used. The abuser may as well be female.

Notoric liers have sadly but true never developed the sence for ethics, the value if moral is not built in the personality. Common rules for ex, moral is only words witch perhaps give only an intellectual understanding, but the meaning and worth is missed, the ability to compassion is absence, no sense of guilt, could learn the rules, but had no sense of conscience. Use charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence to control others and to satisfy their own selfish needs

Dr. Martha Stout, PhD Author: The Sociopath Next Door

Quote:

Red Flags
"When considering a new relationship of any kind, practice the Rule of Threes regarding the claims and promises a person makes, and the responsibilities he or she has.
Make the Rule of Three your personal policy.
One lie, one broken promise, or a single neglected responsibility may be a misunderstanding.
Two may involve a serious mistake.
But three lies says you're dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior.
Cut your losses and get out as soon as you can.
Leaving, though it may be hard, will be easier now than later, and less costly.

Do not give your money, work, secrets, or affection to a three-timer. Your valuable gifts will be wasted."

CashFlow · 07-06-2007, 04:08 PM

Those kind of personalities is often named in the categorys of psycopath or sociopaths is a kind of Antisocial Personality Disorder how serous this disturbance is for each person can vary in the variables counts for diagnoses but always represented in more than one attribute in the context below and in a scale from 1-10

Here is a a compilation of Kalyca Brennan ”Psychopathy - Narcissism 20 TRAITS OF MALIGNANT NARCISSISM”

Quote:

1. THE PATHOLOGICAL LIAR is skillfully deceptive and very convincing. Avoids accountability by diverting topics, dodging questions, and making up new lies, bluffs or threats when questioned. His memory is self serving as he denies past statements. Constant chaos and diverting from reality is their chosen environment.
Defense Strategy: Verify his words. Do not reveal anything about yourself - he'll use it against you. Head for the door when things don't add up. Don't ask him questions - you'll only be inviting more lies.

2. THE CONTRACT BREAKER agrees to anything then turns around and does the opposite. Marriage, Legal, Custody agreements, normal social/personal protocol are meaningless. This con artist will accuse you of being the contract breaker. Enjoys orchestrating legal action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim.
Defense Strategy: Expect him to disregard any agreement. Have Plan B in place. Protect yourself financially and emotionally.

3. THE HIGH ROLLER Successfully plows and backstabs his way to the top. His family a disposable prop in his success facade. Is charismatic, eloquent and intelligent in his field, but often fakes abilities and credentials. Needs to have iron-fisted control, relying on his manipulation skills. Will ruthlessly support, exploit or target others in pursuit of his ever-changing agenda. Mercilessly abuses the power of his position. Uses treachery or terrorism to rule or govern. Potential problem or failure situations are delegated to others. A vindictive bully in the office with no social or personal conscience. Often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further their own Mephistophelian objectives, but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the bag. Disappears quickly when consequences loom.
Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date. Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of retaliation. Be on the lookout and spot them running for office and vote them out. Educate yourself about corporate bullies

4. THE SEXUAL NARCISSIST is often hypersexual (male or female). Pornography, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets. Anything, anyone, young, old, male/female, are there for his gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Often easily bored, he demands increasingly deviant stimulation. However, another behaviour exists, the one who withholds sex or emotional support.
Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you. Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to evade exposure of his own.

5. THE BLAME-GAME NARCISSIST never accepts responsibility. Blames others for his failures and circumstances. A master at projection.
Defense Strategy: Learn about projection. Don't take the bait when he blames you. He made the mess let him clean it up.

6. THE VIOLENT NARCISSIST is a wife-Beater, Murderer, Serial Killer, Stalker, Terrorist. Has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. He lashes out and destroys or uses others (particularly women and children) as scapegoats for his aggression or revenge. He has poor impulse control. Fearless and guiltless, he shows bad judgement. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or punishment, imagines rejection and will reject first to 'get it over with'. He will harass and push to make you pay attention to him and get a reaction. He will try to make you look out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. Has no remorse or regard for the rights of others.
Defense Strategy: Don't antagonize or tip your hand you're leaving. Ask for help from the police and shelters.

7. THE CONTROLLER/MANIPULATOR pits people against each other. Keeps his allies and targets separated. Is verbally skillful at twisting words and actions. Is charismatic and usually gets his way. Often undermines our support network and discourages us from seeing our family and friends. Money is often his objective. Other people's money is even better. He is ruthless, demanding and cruel. This control-freak bully wants you pregnant, isolated and financially dependent on him. Appears pitiful, confused and in need of help. We rush in to help him with our finances, assets, and talents. We may be used as his proxy interacting with others on his behalf as he sets us up to take the fall or enjoys the performance he is directing.
Defense Strategy: Know the 'nature of the beast'. Facing his failure and consequences will be his best lesson. Be suspicious of his motives, and avoid involvement. Don't bail him out.

8. THE SUBSTANCE ABUSER Alcohol, drugs, you name it, this N does it. We see his over-indulgence in food, exercise or sex and his need for instant gratification. Will want you to do likewise.
Defense Strategy: Don't sink to his level. Say No.

9. OUR "SOUL MATE" is cunning and knows who to select and who to avoid. He will come on strong, sweep us off our feet. He seems to have the same values, interests, goals, philosophies, tastes, habits. He admires our intellect, ambition, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us quickly. He fakes integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts. Eventually Jekyll turns into Hyde. His discarded victims suffer emotional and financial devastation. He will very much enjoy the double-dipping attention he gets by cheating. We end the relationship and salvage what we can, or we are discarded quickly as he attaches to a "new perfect soul mate". He is an opportunistic parasite. Our "Knight in Shining Armor" has become our nightmare. Our healing is lengthy.
Defense Strategy: Seek therapy. Learn about this disorder. Know the red flags of their behaviour, and "If he seems too good to be true..." Hide the hurt you feel. Never let him see it. Be watchful for the internet predator.

CashFlow · 07-06-2007, 04:12 PM

the other 10 (belongs to tpost above)

Quote:

10. THE QUIET NARCISSIST is socially withdrawn, often dirty, unkempt. Odd thinking is observed. Used as a disguise to appear pitiful to obtain whatever he can,

11. THE SADIST is now the fully-unmasked malignant narcissist. His objective is watching us dangle as he inflicts emotional, financial, physical and verbal cruelty. His enjoyment is all too obvious. He'll be back for more. His pleasure is in getting away with taking other people's assets. His target: women, children, the elderly, anyone vulnerabie.
Defense Strategy: Accept the Jekyll/Hyde reality. Make a "No Contact' rule. Avoid him altogether. End any avenue of vulnerability. Don't allow thoughts of his past 'good guy' image to lessen the reality of his disorder.

12. THE RAGER flies off the handle for little or no provocation. Has a severely disproportionate overreaction. Childish tantrums. His rage can be intimidating. He wants control, attention and compliance. In our hurt and confusion we struggle to make things right. Any reaction is his payoff. He seeks both good or bad attention. Even our fear, crying, yelling, screaming, name calling, hatred are his objectives. If he can get attention by cruelty he will do so.
Defense Strategy: Manage your responses. Be fully independent. Don't take the bait of his verbal abuse. Expect emotional hurt. Volence is possible.

13. THE BRAINWASHER is very charismatic. He is able to manipulate others to obtain status, control, compliance, money, attention. Often found in religion and politics. He masterfully targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak.
Defense Strategy. Learn about brainwashing techniques. Listen to your gut instinct. Avoid them.

14. THE RISK-TAKING THRILL-SEEKER never learns from his past follies and bad judgment. Poor impulse control is a hallmark.
Defense Strategy: Don't get involved. Use your own good judgement. Say No.

15. THE PARANOID NARCISSIST is suspicious of everything usually for no reason. Terrified of exposure and may be dangerous if threatened. Suddenly ends relationships if he anticipates exposure or abandonment.
Defense Strategy: Give him no reason to be suspicious of you. Let some things slide. Protect yourself if you anticipate violence.

16. THE IMAGE MAKER will flaunt his 'toys', his children, his wife, his credentials and accomplishments. Admiration, attention, even glances from others, our envy or our fear are his objective. He is never satisfied. We see his arrogance and haughty strut as he demands center stage. He will alter his mask at will to appear pitiful, inept, solicitous, concerned, or haughty and superior. Appears the the perfect father, husband, friend - to those outside his home.
Defense Strategy: Ignore his childlike behaviours. Know his payoff is getting attention, deceiving or abusing others. Provide him with 'supply' to avert problems.

17. THE EMOTIONAL VACUUM is the cruellest blow of all. We learn his lack of empathy. He has deceived us by his cunning ability to mimic human emotions. We are left numbed by the realization. It is incomprehensible and painful. We now remember times we saw his cold vacant eyes and when he showed odd reactions. Those closest to him become objectified and expendable.
Defense Strategy: Face the reality. They can deceive trained professionals.

18. THE SAINTLY NARCISSIST proclaims high moral standing. Accuses others of immorality. "Hang 'em high" he says about the murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite lies, cheats, schemes, corrupts, abuses, deceives, controls, manipulates and torments while portraying himself of high morals.
Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour. Be suspicious of people claiming high morals. Can be spotted at a church near you.

19. THE CALLING-CARD NARCISSIST forewarns his targets. Early in the relationship he may 'slip up' revealing his nature saying "You need to protect yourself around me" or "Watch out, you never know what I'm up to." We laugh along with him and misinterpret his words. Years later, coping with the devastation left behind, his victims recall the chilling warning.
Defense Strategy: Know the red flags and be suspicious of the intentions of others.

20. THE PENITENT NARCISSIST says "I've behaved horribly, I'll change, I love you, I'll go for therapy." Appears to 'come clean' admitting past abuse and asking forgiveness. Claims we are at fault and need to change too. The sincerity of his words and actions appear convincing. We learn his words are verbal hooks. He knows our vulnerabilities and what buttons to push. We question our judgement about his disorder. We can disregard "Fool me once..." We hope for change and minimize past abuse. With a successful retargeting attempt, this N will enjoy his second reign of terror even more if we allow him back in our lives.