Andy

Hmmm I have to prove it is not a scam. Well I would have thought it extremely obvious that the payment processor fees would go towards generating returns. What I am doing is working with some people outside of the autosurf industry because the payment processor provides the things that people are looking for. That is security and privacy.

Longfella I urge you to revisit the processor, as I think you will find it offers more security than you may think.

Re my integrity, it seems to me that opinion of what integrity is varies. Now I am not going to deny that I made some bloody huge mistakes. However, I have not turned my back on anyone. I have gone back to drawing boards and worked on the model that was successful, and the time is right to launch it again. Integrity is not all about "If admin pays they have integrity if they do not then they do not"

Aditionally, every payment processr up until now has given the administrator of that payment processor access to all the funds that come in. Every payment processor, up until this model, has given the adminsitrator access to the members accounts. Every payment processor up to this model as allowed the potential for the administrator to provide details about the members and their funds to anyone they so desire.

This model does not give the admin access to the funds so that they can vanish (a la osgold evocash etc). This moel does not have accounts, therefore your funds cannot be identified. There is no history kept.

In a day when your every e-gold transaction is currently being reviewe by the government, this system provides you privacy within the system.

Couple to that a model to that that has worked effectively for over 12 months and only failed because the new owner did not support it, and I think you have a viable and strong program.

I think, btw that the labelling of a program as a scam, which you all appear so ready to do if you do not get paid, completely ignores that there is a risk in the arena. It is not zero sum, and to pretend that it is and if you do not get pai then it has to be a scam is completely off base. This comment relates to your categorization of any program, not just mine.

Label this high risk if you like. But to put anything in a scam section is to shortchange yourselves and your readers.

slappy

Here is a quote from your post:

"Couple to that a model to that that has worked effectively for over 12 months and only failed because the new owner did not support it, and I think you have a viable and strong program."


How you could try to mislead people with something like that is beyond me. Once you sold the names, and didn't transfer the money, there is NO way the "new owner" could have supported the program. You knew this. Without any money, no program can survive. You sold the names, the member's deposits were not included in the sale. Try paying your members without taking in any deposits. That is what you expected Krimm to do? You honestly expected him to pay the members when you kept all the money? What was he to use to pay the members; monopoly money? And you really expect people to believe that? Andy, this forum is not your typical ASA or MMG person who gives little thought to a program and how it is run. After six months, I would have thought you could either tell the truth or at least have a better story. Shame on you.

Andy

Slappy you have pointed out you were not in XLO. However you seemed to have climbed on the bandwagon. You continue to whine an complain about the FACT that Bob promised to take care of the members. Your OPINION does not matter.

I sold the program to a person who apparently knew what he was doing. That he did not follow through is not my responsibility. You keep complaining as if it is, when it is not.

I am not misleading anyone. You post based on your opinions. I was there I post on facts.

You made it your role in life to tell people "the other side" apparently. Do so.

I'm kinda tired of you calling me a liar though when it is fact you who are misrepresenting the truth.

It seems to me that you have not bothered to look at what is on offer, your posts are of a vindictive nature. People will see that, whether it is here or MMG or ASA.


Why do you think posters on ASA or MMG are any less intelligent? Rather arrogant of you I would think.

I am yet to see you post anything useful other than the whine of "It's Andy it has to be bad". You are judgemental and fixated on the past, and on commenting about things you know nothing about.

I was actually trying to have a dialogue with the people here. Your input detracts from considered and intelligent discussion.

Simon

In the end, you have to start categorising in that fashion. There is no way on earth you can be anything but cynical when so many things fail for whatever reason. You're fighting not just general history, but your own history too, which as you have admitted isn't exactly perfect. Asking people to put their faith back in a business that has already ceased to be once, is a stretch in anyone's books. Whether "scam" is the right categorisation could be debated all night - that's why tagging systems were created lol.

In HYIP, opinion becomes fact.

The new pay processing system will probably be big in the years to come. I suppose I'd have to ask why you bothered to setup another surf program, when you could just as easily have concentrated on promoting this new kind of processor. As you seem to be one of the first to take up the technology (and give it a nicer UI) you could do really well out of it once the concept becomes better known. But connecting it back to HYIP straight away seems counter-productive to me.

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sharonsopinion

Andy,

Why in the world would someone use your CSATM when they can just use STP or one of the other exchangers directly? Also, isn't it just a copy of the LOOM system? I can't see why someone outside of signing up for XLOtwo would use it.

Having a program owner force people to use their exchange/payment processor as the only means of depositing and withdrawing is dangerous for players. When one collapses, the other is usually not far behind. Then they lose money in two places, instead of just one. Once it leaves someone's bank account, the funds are just a virtual blip on the computer screen. When someone runs both the scam and the PP, they are just moving the virtual blip from one web page to another and collecting a fee to do it! I have less of a problem with those that at least offer another method, instead of forced use. (If you say it isn't forced because people have the choice of not playing your game, then that is just a con. IF people want to deposit into your game, then they are forced to use CSatm.)

Which brings me to your explanation of how you are generating revenue for XLOtwo. You're still taking member's money (either from XLOtwo deposits or the fees they paid to move funds around in CSatm) and giving it to earlier depositors whose ad packs have matured. Plus 150% ROI in 75 days is too high to get just from CSatm fees, IMO.

So, what you have is a ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes are scams, regardless of how long they last. It doesn't matter that your last ponzi scheme lasted 12 months or not. I fully believe that you knew it was on the verge of collapsing when you sold it to your fellow scammer, Bob Krimm. Please read my article titled, "Ponzi Scheme - Pond Scum."

All that you have done and said so far is a scam and makes you a con-man, IMO. You are no different than the old-time slick "medicine" salesman of days of yore. So, unless you can prove that you are making revenue from something other than the pockets of players, this one stays in the scam warning section. You say that we're shortchanging our readers by putting your scam in the scam section and I say that we'd be doing them a disservice if we promoted your scams.

JMO,
Sharon

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Andy

In HYIP opinion oes not become fact it remains opinion

As to why a surf program... I sometimes wonder.. However, to gain acceptance of the system it needs to be demonstrated and proven. My guess id that you may have researched Loom, but you have not fully researched the ATM concept (I could be wrong). There is much more to it than the security and privacy that is the Loom system, there is also the distributed reserve concept which is, as far as I am aware, unique. The safety that provides is paramount.

Now I have had people contact me an say ok but can it connect to a script etc.. an the best way to demonstrate that is to actually do it.

Now I am aware that some have a less than favourable opinion of me. Others do not. NEither of that makes the ATM concept any more or less better. However, from the ones who are using it, the feedback is valuable and I can make some refinements and enhancements. So the use of it adds to the system.

But bottom line, if I believe in it - why would I not want to use it. And also give back to the members. The fees form part of the revenue stream.

Andy

Right now the only person using CSATM in a program is myself. Others have enquired. Others have indicated that they will. However right now I'm the only one.

People joining XLO2 have to use CSATM. If I opened using e-gold indications are I would have been flooded. That is not the point. Right now I do not see a particularly healthy future for e-gold. Comments by various people indicate that e-currencies generally are in crisis. I am not sure if that is true but I am not about to sit around and do nothing when something is there to be done.

As I posted, I believe in the system. I believe that the safety and privacy offered by the operating system is paramount. Why would I want to use anything else? If I "forced" everyone to use e-gold and e-gold fails in the court case and the whole value is lost, then how smart is that? How forward thinking?

The system has been developed with owners of other ecurrencies. Input has been sought and obtained. The general acceptance is reasonable.

You say that the collapse of a program means that the payment processor is not far behind. With all due respect, you have not done any research on the system, and while I accept that that what you say is generally the case, there are safeguards in CSATM that prevent that. This has been explained in the interview that is posted on the NoBS blog. If you cannot do me the courtesy of reading what is posted and explained, then you cannot expect me to give your opinion any respect. And, to hammer the point home, I do not.

The fees generated from the ATM have covered the withdrawls thus far. Whether you think it is enough or not is not the point.

I suggest you redifine your word scam. If you insist that all ponzis are scams then that is your right. I reckon that is a pack of crap, and have posted that same viewpoint over several years. However, I digress. Quite frankly I have proven that the fees are going towards paying the returns. That right there qualifies this as not a ponzi. And therefore, by your own definition, not a scam.

Now if you want to put this in the scam section because of your personal opinion, then you as an admin can do that. But - by the very definitions you choose, this is not.

NelsonN

The only one trying to redefine the word for his own thieving purposes is you.

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slappy

Number one, I've not jumped on any bandwagon. When you closed TFT and XLO, if I wasn't the first one to call you a crook, I certainly was one of the first. I'm not whining, or complaining. I'm simply telling the truth; the part of the truth that you don't want to admit exists. That part is the fact that the member's deposits were not included in the sale, because you kept them. As stated above, the fact that YOU kept all the money meant the program had no means to survive. None of that is my "opinion", rather it is fact. I've never "misrepresented" the truth, rather that has been left up to you. Are you now saying the member's deposits were included in the sale? You previously said they were not, which means you kept the money. How is that a misrepresentation?

As far as the intelligence level of posters here compared to other sites that you frequent, you will clearly see a pattern here that people are looking for real/legitimate opportunities, not ponzis. On the other sites mentioned, real opportunities are a very, very small part of the forum and in the case of the ASA forum, I don't believe there is even a section for real opportunities, so it's a matter of people not being interested in ponzi's. Most people here are interested in real investments.

You are correct on one thing, which is I have not bothered to look at what is on offer, because I'm not interested in being involved in a ponzi. As I've told you before, I look for real/legitimate offers.

Andy

My point is if I get mads an offer for XLO (which I did I did not seek it out) and the person says I want the database and I will take care of your members Which is what happened, then I am going to say point blank OK no problem.

I do not understand why you have a problem with that. What did you expect me to do? Say "No Bob you're full of crap"??

What Bob did is what Bob did. Despite you saying I wish him crucified for it, this is not the case. My point is that I will NOT be crucified for accepting his word. Not then Not now.

That you have a problem with a what I did is your problem. and NOT mine. Nor were you affected by it.

You and others can rant and rave all you like about how it was "not right" etc. All of that is crap. There was nothing wrong with me selling the program to Bob. Whether he made a bad decision is not my problem. And this has been dicussed a million times previously also.

And as you have not looked at what is offered I do not see how you can classify it as not a real offer.

I will state quite plainly (this is No BS after all) your attitude has stopped you from looking at this in a rational and detached manner. And as I have also stated several times - emotion has no place in this arena.

You have made your point quite clearly. You ASSUME this is no good. You have NOT looked at it. Therefore what you say is tainted by your attitude that once someone makes a mistake they cannot learn.

And as I have also stated several times (which you have ignored) I have demonstrated that I can run a program with this model. This one has a CLEAR indication of an earning stream.

Now if you are just going to run around everywhere and yap away that "It's Andy it must be bad" then go for it. But don't attempt to argue anything else. Be blunt in your opinion. Because all you are basing your posting on is past events and no examination and consideration of the present, or that anyone can learn.

Your SOLE complaint is that I admitted to mistakes in the past...