CyberSpace ATM at Nobullshit Network Forum

Simon · 07-08-2007, 01:55 PM

It's worth discussion. My buzzword recently has been de-centralisation, and I suppose this is another example of it. Funds never go to a central location, and in theory, the owner cannot dip into the honey pot, since funding "locations" are encrypted when stored.

Is there such a thing as too much privacy though? The system may eliminate fraudulent use of funds by the admin, but what about the possibility of money laundering through a totally private system?

Terrorism is always used as a good example, so I'll use it too. Doesn't a "loom" type system make it easy for exchange of funds between criminals etc, without any chance of being caught? From my point of view, I don't care whether my details have to be taken for me to make payments, and I don't see why any law abiding citizen would have any real objections at the end of the day. You might grumble at the time, but when you look back on it, you won't regret it I don't think.

My other question would be whether such privacy makes it even more of a target for paternalistic governments like the US. I'm sure it won't matter to them whether they can't view a user's spend history, or recover any funds, their reaction will probably be something like - too much privacy, lets shut it down anyway.

Ok, so this only applies to people who set something up inside the US (probably increasinly rare these days where currency is involved), but its still an issue, not least because the US government has global influence.

Andy · 07-08-2007, 04:08 PM

Some interesting points.. and worthy of discusion.

The argument used in the Loom system is that the system is a tool. Tools can be both good and bad. If someone sets out to use Loom to do bad things then they will. That does not make Loom per se a bad thing.

OK now to CSATM specific.

The system cannot be used (on an automated basis) by anyone who does not provide the IP of their server to the ATM owner. This then means that thoe who might wish to use the benefits of the privacy for things that are not socially acceptable (child porn, warez sites hate sites terrorism promotion etc) will not be able to. On an automated basis.

Additionally, to get funds into the system one has to use an Exchanger. Each exchanger will use the guidelines of KYC and AML to identify ther customers. They HAVE to.

What CSATM provides is privacy, not secrecy. It is a different thing. Privacy cn give you security. No one else knows or can find out what you used your funds for.

However, take the issue of a casual user. The fund their account (and are identified) They use the ATM to send funds to some socilly unacceptable person. That person then tries to exchange the funds out (and is ID'd) The payment of fiat currency (the folding stuff) is always avail able and reported on. NO legisalation or requirements are ignored. So any attempts at money laundering will be identified.

Quote:

I don't care whether my details have to be taken for me to make payments, and I don't see why any law abiding citizen would have any real objections at the end of the day. You might grumble at the time, but when you look back on it, you won't regret it I don't think.

There are some who would argue that you making a spend to a hyip is tantamount to breaking the law. That is point one.

There are many who argue that erosion of privacy is a bad thing. Why would you not regret that the government can sit down and go through your bank account? Did you allow them too? Every e-gold transaction you made is subjct to review now. Is it possible that you spent to someone who spent to someone who spent to somewhere BAD and you are now linked to that? ? You did nothing "wrong" but a chain of mone movement and all of a sudden you have been paying for something that you had no idea of and you're responsible.

The ATM does not keep histories. You are responsible for who you move funds to. And that is that. You cannot be linked to whatever they do later.
It becomes your responsibility to only deal with people that you have established so level of trust with. How you determine that is your own business - as it should be.

Nowas for being shut down. Technically CSATM is a storage system. It is a book value system, but it holds nothing of value as SUCH - but it holds what can be used to exchange for items of value (money). That is in actual fact what it is, on a technical level. It is not a payment processor.

However, it does simulate those actions.. and to that extent it is fully legally able to do so. Just as Alert Pay and Solid Trust Pay are compltely legal, so is CSATM.

To shut it down hmmm the assets are not there. It is legal. It breaks no money transmitting laws. It does not encourage people to break the law - again every transaction regarding currency is handled by an exchanger.

Could it attract unwanted attention. Possible. The server is in Malaysia. Malaysia does not allow anyone to go in and seize the server. Not even the US. the exchangers are diversely throughout the world - and more will be added. Assets are protected.

I think I am now being repetetive - so could you let me know if I have addressed your questions fully?

Simon · 07-08-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy

I think I am now being repetetive - so could you let me know if I have addressed your questions fully?

Sure did.

One other thing, actually setting it up. CSATM is using loom technology, isn't it? How did you acquire the rights to use it, and is it totally independent of loom.cc - or is there some link to it?

I think that about wraps up my curiosity. Needless to say I like the idea behind it.

Andy · 07-08-2007, 04:58 PM

I have been looking at Loom for years - since out came out actually.

And when e-gold issues arose there was a ned for an alternative.

Several emails and discussions later I was sent the code for Loom and became the 2nd ever Loom node.

CSATM is separate to Loom. I have the advantage of the technology and have added on the distributed reserve concept. Because of this concept, there is only one asset type in CSATM.

More discussion and another e-currency owner told me I was being too complicated.. and sent me a template which has become the page design you see today. I got told - this is what it could look like - now you program it..

And because of the arena - I spent a hell of a lot of time making sure that it is secure for users and administrators.

This is no small undertaking... and I do believe that CSATM offers a viable and useful alternative.

I have also, btw been in touch with script writers an CSATM will be available for scripts as a plugin module hopefully as soon as tomorrow..

Hope that answers fully

HeyJude · 07-08-2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon

I've started a thread about the processor, with a couple of questions, because the concept intrigues me. I don't care about the hyip / autosurf, so let's separate the 2 out.

I agree, Simon. The focus and discussion should be about the concept of this processor and whether or not it has merit.

Sharon earlier commented that she thought CSATM was an unnecessary layer between the buyer and the seller, so why not deal directly with a payment processor and cut out the middleman exchanger.

That is a good point. But it boils down to balancing the advantages and the disadvantages of the system, and the advantages, in my view, would appear to outweigh the disadvantages, even with the extra fees involved.

As long as exchangers can offer multiple buy-sell payment options, which appears to be so, as that improves their business prospects, one can buy CSATM with one ecurrency-processor and sell it back to another one.

I like that flexibility, the feeling that it doesn't matter whether I've got funds in ebullion, egold, c-gold, or other payment processors, or bank wire or a debit card, as long as I go through the exchanger I can swap and change where my money needs to be. And in between it can rest nice and comfy in the CSATM location at an address that I have not had to give to anyone.

Jude

HeyJude · 07-08-2007, 08:55 PM

Thanks Simon and Andy for bringing this discussion back to what I think is the more relevant topic, the CSATM system and the concept and technology behind it. This was an informative read.

HeyJude