What is reasonable to you? at Nobullshit Network Forum

Simon · 04-11-2007, 04:03 PM

Just so i'm clear, to me, HYIP = any online program that either can't show how revenue is (legitmately) generated, or where the long term prospects for consistent returns are doubtful (which is why most forex sites are in that category also for example). Those who say they can't disclose because it would undermine their "business plan" are also largely talking BS, since it is always possible to give some meaningful indication, without blowing their big secret - which let's face it none of them have anyway.

The reason I don't really care about HYIPs anymore is because it is 99% BS. The reason I still look in from time to time is because it is still mildly interesting to see what is going on, and how things are changing. The reason for this thread is actually to do with a quote from Steven earlier in another thread, where he said something like, it is time people started working together more to stop the scammers and boycott obviously dud programs.

So I was thinking about this, and was wondering what others would have to say - what is reasonable for a HYIP (as defined above) to disclose before they become potenitally legit?

Or to put it a better way, what kind of industry standards would you employ if - (a) you had the chance and (b) you could enforce them - that programs of this nature would have to meet before being considered "ok"?

I'm really referring to the ones who want to make their presence known publicly (ie. they advertise to people online), rather than very excluive, private affairs.

I havent really seen it talked about - but a thought exercise in industry standards might be fun to discuss. The question is left deliberately open ended to let you choose how you would approach the problem.

Simon · 04-11-2007, 04:36 PM

I suppose I should probably add a couple of thoughts to start with! Or rather, a couple of problems.

Firstly, giving out too many details (home address for example) to the public is not realistically possible. I dont think that should be expected of anyone. Having said that, a business / office address would be a good place to start. No amount of verification can make something safe, even if it weeded out scam-artists, it doesn't help with matters such as incompetence and mis-management. Of course, those are all things that are prevelent no matter what business you are in.

Secondly, there is the problem of who is told what. If things were to be verified (which would be a requirement considering we are talking about an industry standard), who should be privy to that information? Who is trustworthy enough, reliable enough, dedicated enough etc...

Those are obstacles if you like, or constraints, but since we don't live in a perfect world, we can deal with that.

On to my own personal golden rule - can a program show (whether it be to the public or through more private / secure channels) that 100% of its returns have come as a result of revenue generated outside of income from members? (ie. using income from members to generate returns) And just as importantly, can they show consistency in their results, meaning how long have they been generating returns, and what kind of levels of return can thy show over a sustained period?

Take Infinityshares.com for example, it trades forex, still afloat, and strives to only pay out weekly returns based on profit made from trading. If they can continually show that those returns have always come from trading profits, then they would have passed my test. Btw, I'm only using IS as an example scenario, nothing more.

Some would probably say that's a high threshold to judge to, but if you haven't noticed, this industry is hardly "normal", and so should not be treated as such. Asking anything less would be a waste of time in my opinion.

Steven IS · 04-11-2007, 05:05 PM

It's nice to see someone goes deeper into my thoughts I mentioned in that other topic.

I have given it some thoughts myself and it is hard to create such standards, spread them and make people follow them as a golden rule to join a program..

You would have to create some sort of Industry Approval Site, try to gather several prominent players of the industry and combine their thoughts on one site to give it a label explaining to what category it belongs. This is all doable, but then forcing people to follow that advice, that's barely impossible.. Although I have some ideas, but first of all, you should start with finding that group of people..

**opie999** · 04-11-2007, 05:13 PM

You might find this of interest:
www.thenewlifedesigner.com

**sharonsopinion** · 04-11-2007, 08:28 PM

My thoughts on industry standards have changed over time and they will probably continue to be refined. What I think industry stanards should be, knocks out 99.9% of all HYIPs/LYIPs and all Autosurfs.

They must have a written business plan as to how to handle fluxes in deposits, membership spikes (up and down), revenue generation, communication, expenses, and all other normal business operations. It is not necessary for the public to have access to the business plan.
They must have a verifiable outside source of income for generating at least 90-100% of the revenue.
The returns offered to the investors must be under the amount of revenue generated by the outside income source and preferably be variable.
The staff/administrator in charge of making the returns must prove that they have a history of being capable of making the promised returns.
The program must meet all legal requirements in their country of origin. License and registration information should be available to the public.
The staff/administor must make communication a priority, including news, status, and answering support questions in a timely manner. This also includes the ability to inform members of problems and potential solutions in a timely manner. A forum, conference, IM, and/or skype is recommended.

Here's the list that I wrote last year... How to Run a Successful HYIP/Autosurf – Member’s Perspective at No Bullshit HYIP Blog, A Part of No Bullshit Network. It still stands, however you'll see from the above list, I've added to the criteria I look for in a program. Having a real name and address are a nice to have, but with all of the abuse an administrator has to endure, I can understand why they use aliases and fake contact information. This article helps to weed out the wannabe programs... Things You Should Ask Before You Spend at No Bullshit HYIP Blog, A Part of No Bullshit Network.

Having an organization that approves programs can become dangerous. The original intention of monitors was to do that very thing. However, everyone knows that they are paid off by programs these days. What's to stop an organization of trusted individuals from bending to the lure of big money. One of the best things about having people being able to post, including open forums, blog articles, comments on blogs, etc., is that we can cross check with each other. Cheerleadering and naysaying without substance can quickly be dismissed. Bloggers are the most recognized, because articles are more noticable than comments buried in long threads. That is the reason that they are most often the ones entrusted with verifying a program's information. There are a handful of them that I completely trust for information. However, it is still my responsibility as an investor to do my own digging on a program that interests me.

There have been organizations in the past that tried to put a seal of approval on programs, most notably are Team Aaron and Sharon and Sensa Trust. There have been many. What happens is, if they uknowingly (or worse knowingly) approve programs of slick conartists, who later turn out to be proven scammers, then the seal of approval becomes irrelevant. That is why when I do recommend something in public, I try to include words like "use multiple resources before deciding", "due your own investigation", etc. I wouldn't like to rely on just one organization's recommendation anymore than I would want someone to rely on just my recommendation.

JMO,
Sharon

Simon · 04-11-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven IS

It's nice to see someone goes deeper into my thoughts I mentioned in that other topic. I have given it some thoughts myself and it is hard to create such standards, spread them and make people follow them as a golden rule to join a program..

It was a good point. It deserves further attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharonsopinion

There have been organizations in the past that tried to put a seal of approval on programs, most notably are Team Aaron and Sharon and Sensa Trust. There have been many. What happens is, if they uknowingly (or worse knowingly) approve programs of slick conartists, who later turn out to be proven scammers, then the seal of approval becomes irrelevant. That is why when I do recommend something in public, I try to include words like "use multiple resources before deciding", "due your own investigation", etc. I wouldn't like to rely on just one organization's recommendation anymore than I would want someone to rely on just my recommendation.

A very good point, for all I know there may not actually be a viable solution. Con-artists will learn to target the "verification" and get past it. There is no easy way to avoid this happening, at least I cannot think of one. Be that as it may, I am hoping for a few people to at least come up with a new way of looking at the problem. I love problem solving.

There is a paradox here - a "seal of approval" is something that would mean a program would have to reach a certain standard, and thus be seen as a strong point in favour of the program, and yet it is the seal itself which then becomes the weak link - due to the fact that people will be attracted to a program meeting the "standard" and so serious scammers can target obtaining a seal. What it does do though is remove a lot of programs from the mix straight away.

But i'm sure there are other ways to approach such a problem, so I will continue to think about it...

EDIT: I suppose if you are even going to think about creating a better system to those that have gone before it, you need to do some research on why previous systems failed. I don't know much about previous verification systems that were employed, but I'm sure others do, and I would be interested in knowing some of the programs that were verified by such systems, but then turned out to be "scams". That means finding out what criteria they used, deducing where the weak links in the system were, and rating how easily the criteria used could be forged. Not sure if anyone else would be interested in helping to compile that kind of preliminary information, but it would be interesting. (take nothing for granted)

**Jude** · 04-12-2007, 12:39 AM

Despite all the different kind of verifications that you might be able to do, scammers might still outsmart you.

What I'm looking for is what I've done for Infinity Shares and Life Holdings, and they've done it spectacularly well, scoring flying colors with my review, and they've touched me with their earnesty on running their program.

You could create a system for validation, but it must be revised from time to time since those cheaters are getting smarter and smarter.

**sharonsopinion** · 04-12-2007, 06:14 AM

Hi Simon,

There are plenty of things to study. I started actually trying to track the most popular programs in a database last year. I have almost 200 programs in there. Before that and after that I studied some of the big guns modus operandi, like 12DP and PIPs.

Like what Jude said.. as HYIP investors become better informed, scammers evolve and come up with new twists. What they don't seem to be able to do is come up with new excuses for delay tactics, but I guess that's only a matter of time. Many try to duplicate old programs in the hopes that people have forgotten and will think their idea is fresh. LOL

So, while you're investigating where approval organizations went wrong, look into the big scam histories. You'll find the names or acronyms for them as you look into approval organizations. When you find them, google them and you'll learn a ton. Only part of my experience comes from actually playing the game myself. More of it comes from tracking and researching history. HYI history is fascinating, but don't get lost by all the crap out there. Just skip over all posts that have no real information in them. I can tell you that I've spent hundreds of hours pouring over history. I still do it when I think something may have ties to the past.

I wish you good luck! Please let us know what you find. I'm open to all suggestions that would try to clean up the scams.

Thanks,
Sharon

HeyJude · 04-14-2007, 08:54 AM

Simon,

It reminds me of NetIBA and the St*Pay connection. I know what you are suggesting is a far cry from that.

NetIBA is still in action. They sent me a reminder a few months ago to renew my membership...I only joined because it was going to save on my St*Pay fees and ended up costing me more instead.

What a hoot!

Actually, if one reads the material at the NetIBA site, and takes it at face value without knowing the genesis and ownership of the site, one could easily be persuaded that it might be worthwhile to carry that seal of approval.

HeyJude

HeyJude · 04-14-2007, 09:10 AM

While on this topic, I just remembered that Organicman from the Safelist has recently started a new site that aims to verify details about online programs, then give them a Verified Seal.

An interesting concept. I see he has 3 verifications in progress and one pending. I admire what Org is trying to do, but wonder how many sites will put themselves up to the kind of scrutiny advocated.

Organicman is looking for all the help he can get. He has a thread running on this topic at the Safelist.

His heart and intentions are certainly in the right place. I quote from his site:

Quote:

Verification does NOT mean that a company cannot fail or that all investments/deposits/loans placed with the verified company are secure or guaranteed.

Verification is simply to analyze the means by which the company claims to derive an income and to determine whether this process is sustainable given the widely fluctuating financial markets and effects of outside influences.Investing in other surf-to-earn programmes is not considered a reliable source of income!

Here is the link, for anyone interested:

thenewlifedesigner verifiers

HeyJude