ensio

I’ve been reading this forum for few months, also monitored this thread very closely. I didn’t have need to register to this forum until I saw what was discussed in this wincapita thread. I have followed this wincapita discussion on Finnish forums since last autumn after this scam was exposed.

I currently live in our capital, but originally come from small town of Lapua. This town has only 14000 residents, but this wincapita is about to destroy this little town. There’s only two sponsors in this town, but for some weird reason they have succeed to bring 300-400 people into this scam. There’s a lot of people who has lost a lot of money, what they basically couldn’t afford to lose. This is very sad thing.

Now, both these sponsors don’t know anything. All they say is that this thing will come back and people should wait. And they are also saying that if members tells anything to police, club will remember this when they re-open their business. Just one word, this is just pure ballshit.

Do you understand why these sponsors want you to back off. One Finnish professor from university estimated that there is about 100 sponsors whose actions will be sanctioned by deception according our law. He said that after sponsor realizes that only way to make money is to bring new members to this club, sponsor is guilty of making act of economic crime. Your sponsor are only trying to cover their own asses, fear of juridical actions against them. I totally understand their position. If your have sponsored half on your family and your friends to this scam, they are very scared. They can only believe that this thing will come back, which I assure wont happen.

Finnish police has very interesting video footage from wincapita recruiting meeting from last summer. This 1 hour film was shoot by one member who invested large amounts to this club. Part of this film was broadcast in our national television 2 days ago. And I assure, it was really shocking. Police also said that it’s very unique to get possession this kind of material when investigating these kind of scams, because usually leaders of these clubs are doing everything they can to keep every information out of people eyes.

I really don’t care if you lose all your assets to different kind of scams. I don’t know you, I don’t have commitments to this thin. But what makes me angry, my ‘lovely’ Finnish fellows have succeeded to scam 10000 persons.

I can only wish you make wise decisions. In Finland almost everybody who has defended this club, has now disappeared from forums. Last year they were very proud to this club, but not any more. I think it will take some time after these thought will emerge to overseas.

sensible

Wayne, sorry to say but your FACTS are just not true.
I personally know 1 person that have taken money out from moneybookers after wc was closed down. Money that was made from wc investments. Finnish police are right now doing a preinvestigation to see if there is a chance to get ahold of wc accounts from mb. How can the finnish police tell the UK police that there never was any trading done? I'm not an expert when it comes to computers but to see that there was no trading done must mean that they have got ahold of the wc server? My mb account has not been frozen.

sensible

Someone, at first I told myself to ignore you and your stupid comments about me, but I know there are some people on this forum that actually have invested money into wc and I'm trying to give them what little information I do have. Do I know for sure that wc will be back? No I don't!!! But you on the other hand definately has no clue whatsoever what will happen with wc!! I invested in wincapita a long time before I sponsored any people and I did make good money long before my sponsoring. I have sponsored my parents and my sister and don't you dare tell me I did this to make money from them you stupid bastard. Why are you so eager to tell everyone to go to the police? They already have enough complaints and they are already doing a preinvestigation into wc!

Vane

Thank you so much to everybody who have posted some information. Since yesterday I haven't been able to contact my sponsor.

To the old members (especially the Finnish ones): is the information about Hannu K. correct? Is he a real trader? When my sponsor signed me up he swore that Hannu K. was a registered trader. This is a mess!

wayne

Sensible,you say my facts are wrong but all the facts I stated were in fact details of what the police said to me so are you saying I have invented what the police said or are you saying that the police have got it wrong.
If you think I am lying about what the police said then speak to them yourself the contact details are earlier in the thread.
If you think the police have got it wrong then maybe they have but if that’s what they think then Hannu K still has to go through the process of proving he is right as I described and why hasn’t he then started that process already.
You say that people were able to draw out of MB after WC went down and I agree with you. WC went down on 7th or 8th March and as far as I am aware there were no problems with withdrawing until 20th or 22nd March when accounts were frozen and some later reinstated.
Despite asking this question many times I always get half an answer.
Are there any MB members whose account contains profit from WC who can still withdraw it now.
All the people I have sponsored have MB accounts which work fine but they have never had any profit and there are MB accounts which have received payments from WC in the past but which now contain none of those funds and they work fine.
But I can not find any MB members whose account contains profit from WC who can still withdraw it now.
As to how the police know about the trading,I have no idea,maybe they hacked into WC computer before the site crashed but it really is not important as long as police suspect this is the case and no-one is proving otherwise MB accounts and WC will remain closed
I want the club to come back as much as you,I have put in a lot of money by my standards and I have seen proof of the money people have had out but the problem is no longer one of just whether the trading was genuine or not its gone way beyond that.
The onus of proof is now entirely upon WC and until the owners can come up with incontrovertible evidence that everything is genuine the police investigations will continue and everything remains frozen.
If WC really is genuine Hannu K must be aware of all the angry people and assuming that WC is genuine they must have at least as much money now in the club as people have put in up to when it went down so why does he not offer everyone that wants it their money back.All the unhappy people would take their money out,people like you would leave it in to carry on making money,the police would have to give up the investigation as there would be no-one scammed.

sensible

Hi Wayne,
No I don't think you are lying about what the police said and I agree with most of what you are saying. I don't think they have hacked into the computer but just as you say it really doesn't matter because Hannu K must contact them and show all. But from what I've heard HK does thing his way and his way only. As far as with the mb accounts I will come back to you with the exact date my friend withdraw the money.

snuffkin

Hi!

First, there is no way that the UK police could know for sure that WC was a scam. No one has been convicted of a crime yet, they have only just started an investigation. The finnish police haven't commented on the issue much and I'm sure that both countries would be informed at the same time. So it's either an investigation technique or the story got twisted somewhere.

I don't know what is going on right now, but I can't understand how WC could have been a scam either. There is no way that it could have been a pyramid, one that was funded only by the money that people brought in. Here's why.

- Everyone I know that has invested in the club has got their money back and more, and only a fraction of them have sponsored more people.
-The signals that the software gave out were real, you can ask anyone who used fxtrader signals in their trading - they were able to make profit using the software. Why would you NOT trade if you were so good at it?? I mean... it makes no sense!
- The information in the media contradicts itself. If there are 50 WC people living in Thailand, and people put 50 million in the club, that makes 1 million per person in the thai community - which is not a lot of money. Plus the rest of the money that thousands of other people have taken out. More money must have come from somewhere. It is simply NOT ENOUGH.
-This club has been going and developing since 2003. It has been closed from new members for months and months, while people took out money. So at some point you start wondering... if this was a ponzi scheme, why would they close it from incoming funds for so long?? There was a voting, if people would want to open the club for new members or keep it closed. Again, doesn't make sense.
-All kinds of marketing and advertising of this community has been against the rules. If it was a pyramid/ponzi, I don't understand why marketing would be prohibited.


Again, I do not understand what is going on. I think that it may be something very unfortunate and strange, something we have no idea about.

Now that the police is involved, it may be a long while before things get back to normal. Even if the website was brought back up, our money traffick would be jammed - thanks to people going to the police.

Well, everyone have a great day! I guess only time will tell us what the truth is. Even if this was a scam, I'm more than interested to see how this all happened. I consider myself a sensible person, and I know for a fact that the people involved with this club are highly respected, intelligent and powerful individuals in their communities. You people would be surprised.

Someone

Poor sensible!

How can you say that my comments about you are stupid? There are accurate comments due to what YOU have written here: “I've been a member of wincapita for over 3 years and I'm really not that worried about all this.” But other people here are worried! They haven’t won any money at all as you have. Only lost money. And you don’t have any other arguments than say that I’m a stupid bastard! Unfortunately, I don’t think that the people who visit this thread and compare what you write, will doubt who the stupid bastard is!

You ask me why I’m so eager to tell everyone to go to the police. My answer is that these is a giant fraud and also, if possible, stop the guilty persons. And it’s also interesting to know more about the day to day economic life for some persons.

As you can see of my former message, I understood that you are a sponsor. And now – sensible - you confirm it. Are you afraid for anything? A spontaneous answer is yes? Aren’t you clean? Have you a lot of money in Pánama or Switzerland or where? If you also are innocent, the best you can do is to go to the police.

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Someone

wayne

Hi
I cannot argue with any of the things you have referred to,in fact many of these were what convinced me to invest my money in the first place and I have many doubts about what is actually happening.
I take your point about the fact that there is very little information given out by Finnish police and yet UK police were very forthcoming about being convinced that WC was a scam,maybe thats because there is no likelihood of media explosion in UK like there is in Finland and maybe also in UK police are very much more direct.
For example when I asked Moneybookers why my account was frozen they gave me phone number of Finnish police officer whom I spoke to but because of the language difficulty I did not get much information.
The day after I received a call from a UK officer from the Fraud Squad in London who asked me how much I had invested and for the contact details of those I had sponsored.I replied I was not happy for him to contact them before I had told them of the situation and that I would contact them all and ask them to contact him .
The next day he called me and said he had not had any contact from anyone and I said I would contact my sponsored persons again and ask them again but he demanded contact details there and then.
I was out of town and could not access all the details instantly at which point he said if I did not give him the information right now he would send a local police officer to my house and they would take me the 200 miles to London charged with fraud.
I pointed out that I was not at home and he was therefore wasting his time so in the end he agreed I could send him details when I got home but I was not impressed with the threats.
But back to Wincapita,whilst accepting all your points I would like to play the devils advocate and put forward some things which would support the scam theory.
I think that some events in the past could represent a perfect exit strategy from a scam.
For example lets say you have a programme which is going along ok,attracting new investment and paying out ok and you decide to livenh things up,given the fact that that you are able to analyse the way people invest and withdraw and have been able to build up a model of how people behave over a number of years.
So firstly you suddenly make it impossible for members to sign up new people supposedly because of media attention and to prove your business is not a ponzi but in reality senior members can still make "special requests"from upline to sign new members.New members do not really sign up many new people or attract new investment until they have been a member for a while anyway so the incoming cash does not suffer too much as the "back door members" keep arriving,in fact now the club is closed people who have been sitting on the fence for a while are even keener to join as they feel it more exclusive.
Next up you have in November the best months trading ever.over 400 pips,everythings going great and then there is a Christmas party where eveyone has a great time and is attended by senior members but not club management.
A poll in the forum reveals over 70% of the members would prefer to maintain the ban on new members and admin remind members that the club is not a democracy and will act as it sees the best interests of the club.
December results are once again outstanding and by now everyone in the club is dreaming of a white Christmas.
By now everyone is convinced that this is fantastic so when the club reopens for new memberships in early January there is a massive frantic demand which has built up whilst membership has been closed other than to those on the inside track.
Now the rules for new members are that to qualify for the original rights new members must join before 14th January.It is virtually impossible for new members to open a moneybookers account,get it verified and then fund the account and send money to WC in time.So existing members can use funds in Wincapita to pay for new members which is a masterstroke as it keeps huge amounts of money in the club which otherwise might have been taken out.
WIF shares are announced with the prospectus showing the fantastic anticipated returns and the fact that shares cost 3 euros in January,6 euros in February and 9 euros in March so if you buy in January you can treble your money by April.
Just to give a liitle credence to the fledgeling WIF organisation there are advertisments in the forum for officers to work for the company.
January trading results are great again members buy lots of WIF shares instead of withdrawing funds and then new members repay their sponsors having opened their MB accounts and done transfers.
So there is another big influx of cash into the system buying WIF shares at bargain prices and the result is a massive cash bubble in Wincapita
In February trading results start to look very much less impressive,members complain on the forum and then the forum is withdrawn so members can not withdraw.
Then we had the announcement about abuse of the club and the rest is history.
I have never been able to explain how the club could exist as long as it did if there was no legitimate trading.Maybe there was some balance between incoming money in new investments and outgoing which could maintain a stable situation and I am sure that the 6 month time differential between investing and withdrawing would help with that and the club management would be able to monitor this closely.
Maybe there was some trading and whether or not it was as successful as it was conveyed to members we do not know.
But if we accept the events as an exit strategy then it stands as a really effective model.
I have no doubt about your comments on the people involved in the network,I am sure that the vast majority of people involved in this are decent and honest but there has been a cloud cast over the intentions of those at the top which only they can lift or maybe the authorities will disperse

JoseLeon

I don´t know if Wincapita is a ponzi or not (but I really think it is, with that incredible profit...) but all these posts remember me the same that happened with all ponzis before and then "nothing happens, they will return...", etc.

Some time later the Admin dissapears, after moving his money day by day and telling people to trust him and he will return, and then the investors know the sad truth.

Strange thing reading in wikipedia as it was a ponzi yet... and with my experience and what I read about WC I only can be worried with all the people who invested in this program.

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